Being Religious and Gay

“God is a concept by which we measure our pain” – one man’s struggle to reconcile his faith and his sexuality

NOTE: This article was prepared by one of our team. Comment and Feedback is welcome, some of which is appended at the end of this article after the Notes and References section.

It is ironic that for someone who is not a fan of the Beatles should quote John Lennon as the title of such a serious topic but it is no more ironic than associating God with pain whereas God is supposed to be about love.

When I first saw that line, (of all places, on the wall of a public toilet), my heart ached in resonance. How it epitomized the guilt I felt over the dark years when I realized that I was at once both a Catholic and a man attracted to other men.

Christians are famous for their guilt though it is due more to the indoctrination of organized Christian administration rather than inherent truth. As a Catholic, I have been taught to chant: “mea culpa, mea culpa”. It is all our fault, “I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do [2].

In particular, gay people are clobbered with 5 passages from the Old Testaments [3] and 6 passages from the New Testaments [4] that are conventionally interpreted as God’s words in condemnation of gays and gay’s behaviour/relationship. To be honest, I have never been taught all those passages in details but even just from what I had picked up here and there in the news and discussions amongst the peers was sufficient to bring to bear a heavy weight upon my conscience. It was not until much later after I attended a talk by the liberal retired Episcopalian Bishop Spong before I understood how restricted and errant the conventional interpretations are. It was really uplifting and relieving to hear from a voice coming out of the religious hierarchy to explain the error and apologized on behalf of the Christian churches to all the gay people past and present, even though his was one of the few voices amongst the majority of the main stream Christians.

No matter how much scholarship had gone into the study and interpretation of the Bible, no matter how many scholars and liberal Christians have come out with explanations that those passages were written for a different time, place, culture and people and that some key words were mistranslated, [Conclusions of 3 & 4] the conservative Christians would still maintain that God has repeatedly condemn homosexuals and liberal Christians would disagree. People can and will interpret Bible or any sacred text in any way they want. Truth could not be revealed from reading the Bible if we are dead set in our mind on what we want to read from the Bible or any sacred text. How many wars have been and will continue to be fought in the name of religion? How many have and continue to die in the name of one’s faith?

The Bible is but a collection of text written by human authors who claimed to have been inspired by the Holy Spirit/God and selected by the human representatives of the Church for what they deemed to be the correct dogma to serve the purpose of the Church. There are other gospels that are not included in the Bible we read. [5] As it is, the Bible is full of conflicting passages as well as statements that have been refuted by modern science and archaeology. [6] As history has shown that the Popes were far from infallible and many leaders of other denominations have been found to be morally corrupt or legally convicted of the very crimes they decried. Why should one torture oneself with doctrines that may not be accurately interpreted by persons who are only human, by the Church that says that the Jews are a cursed race, that one can assassinate a non-Catholic ruler [7].

I think we have to ask ourselves that if it is our fault that we are attracted to men? Is it wrong to love another man with all our heart and soul? Have we forced other men to have sex with us against their will? Have we molested under age children? Finally, do we believe that we are created by God? Then how could we be wrong to follow the heart and mind that is created by God? Ultimately it is to God that we have to account to.

In the past, I had mixed feelings about going to church. On one hand I felt privileged to be at the house of God, to witness and share the miracle of the reincarnation of Christ but on the other hand, I felt totally demoralized as I could not partake in the Holy Communion because of my sexual orientation/practice. Until one Sunday, I happened to go to church with a good friend of mine, when he saw that I did not go for Communion, he touched my shoulder and whispered to me, “there is nothing that keeps you from God, His understanding surpasses all”. Lots of theologians might dispute that statement but to me, at the time, it was as if God had spoken. It was His invitation to me, to join Him once again.

In my long years of struggle, between the times I realized that I was attracted to men and be tormented by it up till the recent years when I feel much more at peace with myself. I had gone through various stages of emotion:

  1. Anger – why me? Why couldn’t I be a normal straight boy who enjoyed the company of girls? But I had never experienced denial because I knew it was right for me.
  2. Loneliness - I felt I was alone in my predicament, I was alone even though I was surrounded by crowds of people, no friends, nor folks could penetrate my thoughts, they were in a different world to mine because I felt nobody understood me.
  3. Sadness - I was filled with this bitter sweetness of being in love but in love with no one in particular for my heart was filled with love for someone who had not yet existed for me.
  4. Lost – I did not know what to do, where I should go from there
  5. Excitement & joy – Love found, I wanted to tell everyone about it but was also afraid that other might find out that I was gay
  6. Guilt – Before, I sinned only in my heart, now I sinned with my acts
  7. Aggressive/defensive – I am gay, so what? I am what I am, there is nothing I could do to change and I would not change, if you are my friends, take me as I am.
  8. Rationalization – analyzed myself, analyzed the world around me and tried to understand who I am, tried to understand why and how other people looked at gay people like myself and the way they treated us
  9. Peace – came to terms with myself, with other people, with reality
  10. Sharing and support – felt the need to help others who might be going through similar struggle

In the early days I lived my life in a haze, I would write secret journals and poems. I had opened up a good communication channel with God, I felt his presence (not in a dramatic Wagnerian shafts of light sense), more like my best friend. Even in my darkest hour, God had never forsaken me and neither had I of Him. There were times I felt alone. I might have felt “numb” or temporarily blocked in my private channel with God but He was always there for me. When I asked hard enough, long enough, He almost always granted my pleas, the answers or solutions might not have come at the time I wanted, or in the way I wanted but looking back they almost always turned out to be better than I could have devised for myself.

It is difficult enough to be gay and to be gay and Christian could be downright torturous but it is only torturous if we choose to believe that God is a God of wrath, a God that imparts guilt and metes out punishments, the way that the religious organizations want us to believe because it is by submitting us to these oppressive doctrines that we are subjected to their mercy and dictation. If we believe, as each one of us is capable of experiencing that God is a God of love, God is a God of understanding and compassion, then we have the power to refute the destiny that other humans have forced us to believe in, that we have the power to live a life that we choose and if we are worthy, love will find our way.

May you find the strength to stand up for the life that is meant for you and may God be with you, always.

Notes and References

[1] Christians used here and hereafter in its widest sense to include all faiths and denominations, Catholic and “Christians” alike that believe in one God, the Father of Jesus Christ

[2] Extracts from Catholic “Penitential Rites”

Bible References

I would like to emphasis that I am no bible scholar and cannot plagiarize the scholarship quoted in this article. Unless otherwise stated, the references, analysis, arguments and conclusion drawn from different biblical passages listed below are extracted from: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm

[3] Old Testament

Genesis 1: Be fruitful and multiply.....

Genesis 1:27 & 28: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, ..." King James Version.

Genesis 2:23-24: About marriage

"The man said, 'This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh'...For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and they will become one flesh."

Genesis 19: The story of Sodom and Gomorra

This passage states that all of the people from the city of Sodom gathered around Lot's house and demanded that he send out two visiting angels so that the townspeople might "know" the angels. The word "know" probably implies that they wanted to have sex with the strangers. God later destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of the behaviour of the people of Sodom -- the Sodomites. Judges 19:14-29 appears to be a near exact copy of Genesis 19, in which a Levite plays the role of the angels. The mob accepted the offer of a woman to rape in place of the visitor. So, either the men in town were bisexuals, or they wanted to rape the Levite in order to humiliate him. The former is most unlikely, because male bisexuals are relatively rare. They total only about 3% of all male adults. Again, men raping a man, is a crime of power and control. It has no connection with loving, same-sex behaviour in a committed same-sex relationship, just as a man raping a woman has no connection with consensual opposite-sex behaviour in a committed opposite-sex relationship.

Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13: The abomination

Leviticus 18:22 in the King James Version states: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." Leviticus 20:13 is similar, except that it adds the death penalty as punishment.

Although the original Hebrew clearly refers to male-male sexual activity, both the Living Bible and New Living Translation refer to a prohibition of "homosexuality." This would include sex between two women -- a behaviour not mentioned anywhere in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Deuteronomy 23:17, etc: Sodomites and shrine prostitutes

Deuteronomy 23:17 in the King James Version states: "There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel." There are similar passages in 1 Kings 14:24, 15:12 & 22:46 and 2 Kings 23:7.

Conclusions from the Old Testament:

A common conservative conclusion: God's word repeatedly upholds one-man, one-women marriage as God's intent for relationships. It also repeatedly condemns same-sex behaviour between men and perhaps between women.

A common liberal conclusion: Genesis does mention the pairing off of one man and one woman into a marriage-like relationship. But this is only one of many possible marital or family relationships. There are a total of eight types mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures. Genesis 19 definitely condemns rape. But this is unrelated to consensual same-sex sexual behaviour. The phrases in Leviticus only apply to Jews engaging in same-sex activity in Pagan temples. The references to sodomites in Deuteronomy etc. is a clear error in translation. Again it refers to ritual sex in Pagan temples.

There is nothing in the Hebrew Scriptures that condemns same-sex committed relationships or same-sex marriage.

[4] New Testament

Romans 1: Changing the natural use into that which is against nature....

Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet." (King James Version)

Paul directed this book to Christians in Rome -- a city known for its sexual debauchery. Earlier verses in Romans 1 describe how some former Christians had reverted to Paganism. They once more worshiped idols, and engaged in ritual sex orgies. God caused them to engage in same-sex sexual behaviour. This is the only passage in the Bible that directly refers to women having sex with other women.

Regarding the first sentence of this passage, in the original Greek, the phrase translated "vile affections" does not refer to passion or lust. It appears to refer to the "frenzied state of mind that many ancient mystery cults induced in worshipers by means of wine, drugs and music." The "women did change" (or "exchanged" or "abandoned") their normal sexual activity, which had been with a man or men. They engaged in sexual activities with members of the same sex, in violation of their heterosexual orientation.

In the original Greek, the phrase "para physin" translated as "against nature" or "unnatural" or "immoral" actually means "Deviating from the ordinary order either in a good or a bad sense, as something that goes beyond the ordinary realm of experience."

A common religiously conservative interpretation:

The late Bennett Sims, the former Episcopal Church, USA bishop of Atlanta, GA was a supporter of equal rights for gays and lesbians. During a talk that supported same-sex marriage, he expressed well the interpretation of this passage that is held by many conservative Christians. He said: "For most of us who seriously honor Scripture these verses still stand as the capital New Testament text that unequivocally prohibits homosexual behaviour. More prohibitively, this text has been taken to mean that even a same-sex inclination is reprehensible, so that a type of humanity known as 'homosexual' has steadily become the object of contempt and discrimination."

A. Mohler said: "The passage makes it clear that homosexuality is ultimately a rebellion of human nature against the divine creator. It deals with the heart of homosexuality, the passion of man for man or woman for woman."

A common religiously liberal interpretation:

It is important to realize exactly to whom this passage refers. It involved some former Christians who had converted back to Paganism and started worshiping idols in the form of humans, animals, and birds. They engaged in wild sexual orgies -- activity which was common in Pagan worship at the time. Although their sexual orientation was presumably heterosexual, under the influence of emotion, alcohol, frenzied activity, they engaged in same-sex behaviour: women having sex with women; men with men. In doing so, they violated their own nature, which was heterosexual. They were in turn punished, probably with an STD which was very common at the time. They were being punished because their behaviour was opposite to their fundamental nature. The passage is a condemnation of men and women with a heterosexual orientation engaging in same-sex behaviour outside loving committed relationships. It does not refer to persons with a homosexual orientation. It does not refer to persons with any of the three sexual orientations who were engaging in sex within a committed relationship.

By extension, this passage could be interpreted as forbidding opposite-sex sexual behaviour by persons with a homosexual orientation, because it would be against their basic nature to have sex with a person of the opposite sex.

1 Corinthians 6: Behaviours that will prevent a person from attaining Heaven:

1 Corithians 6:9-10: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [makakoi], nor abusers of themselves with mankind [arsenokoitai] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (King James Version) [Emphasis ours]

The New International Version translates the second highlighted group as "homosexual offenders." In Today's English Version, it is "homosexual perverts." There is an enormous range of interpretations that biblical commentators have made of the word "arsenokoitai."

A common religiously conservative interpretation:

From a forum on homosexuality and the Bible in the Philadelphia Inquirer:

A. Mohler: "I believe it explicitly relates to homosexuality. It has been understood that way in the Christian Church from the earliest era."

T. Crater: "It [malakoi] can have a meaning that's not carnal. But the way it's used -- it's embedded in the same context with adultery -- it's pretty clear what the meaning is...A hallmark of Evangelicals is that we take a literal, normal, face-value interpretation of the Bible. Some people attempt to keep some form of Christianity and hold on to homosexuality, too. It leads to strange interpretations of the Bible."

A common religiously liberal interpretation:

The Greek "makakoi" does not mean homosexual, it actually means effeminate. It can refer to a range of behaviours: people with loose morals, cowards, lazy men, etc.

The exact meaning of "arsenokoitai" has been lost. In one ancient manuscript, the Hebrew "quadesh" (temple prostitute) is translated into Greek as "arsenokoitai." Others suggest that it refers to gigolos; still others suggest it means masturbators or men who sexually abuse boys.

Since we do not know to which behaviours this passage refers, it would not be ethical to interpret as involving condemnation of homosexual behaviour.

1 Timothy 1: "Arsenokiitai" are lawless, disobedient, ungodly...

1 Timothy 1:9-10: "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine." (King James Version) [Emphasis ours].

The King James Version translates "arsenokoitai" as those persons -- presumably men -- "that defile themselves with mankind." The comments for 1 Corinthians 6 apply here as well.

Jude 1:7: Sodomites going after strange flesh:

Jude 1:7: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." [Emphasis ours] The phrase rendered "going after strange flesh" has been translated as "perverted sensuality", "unnatural lust", "unnatural sex", "lust of men for other men". It appears to refer to the incident in Genesis 19 when men of Sodom apparently wanted to rape two angels who were in Lot's home. God responded with total destruction of the two cities.

A common religiously conservative interpretation:

This verse is referring back to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. The male mob in Sodom rejected the offer of two virgin women for sexual purposes and demanded to have sex with the male angels instead. This proves that they were homosexuals. The passage clearly condemns homosexual behaviour.

A common religiously liberal interpretation:

The verse is ambiguous. Two obvious interpretations are:

The intent of the mob to rape the angels. Rape is a clear perversion of God-given sexuality.

The angels were created beings, but were not of the same species as humans. Raping them would involve bestiality. This would seem to match the statement that the men of Sodom went after "strange flesh."

[Author's note: personally I do not agree with the interpretation that angels are created beings and therefore involve bestiality because human are created beings as well. I believe Jude 1:7 is more about condemning the denial of hospitality to strangers rather than condemning homosexuality]

Conclusions from the New Testament:

A common conservative conclusion:

God's word repeatedly condemns same-sex behaviour, either between two men or two women. It delivers a consistent message from Genesis to Jude.

A common liberal conclusion:

There is no passage in the Christian Scriptures that condemns same-sex committed relationships or same-sex marriage.

Romans 1 condemns Christian apostates who apparently had a heterosexual orientation and who engaged in what was for them unnatural sex: engaging in sex with members of the same sex.

1 Corinthians 6 and 1 Timothy 1 are ambiguous. They might possibly relate to homosexual behaviour; but they might well refer to men who sexually abuse boys, or to male gigolos, or to male temple prostitutes. We just don't know. If these passages actually referred to persons with a homosexual orientation, they probably would not refer to loving, consensual same-sex behaviour in a committed relationship. Paul was writing before the existence of a homosexual orientation was known. The only forms of homosexual behaviour of which he was probably aware would have been males sexually abusing boys, and men engaging in of same-sex orgies during Pagan worship.

Jude 1:7 appears to refer to the desire by the men of Sodom to engage in bestiality with another species -- angels. There is none of this going on in by either homosexuals or heterosexuals today.[Author's note: personally I do not agree with the interpretation that angels are created beings and therefore involve bestiality because humans are created being as well. I believe Jude 1:7 is more about condemning the denial of hospitality to strangers rather than condemning homosexuality]

[5] The world was created in 7 days; all the species of animals were on the Noah’s Ark; the date of Creation/Origin of earth was 4004 BC according to Ussher Chronology etc. All of which are under dispute by modern scientists.

[6] Apart from the 4 accepted Canonical Gospels, there are other Gospels not accepted by the Catholic Church e.g. Gospel of Peter, Gospel of James, Gospel of Thomas etc.

[7] p.295 Why Am I A Catholic by Gary Wills, Houghton Mifflin Books, 2002

Feedback

Feedback From Readers

1) Thanks

I have read your paper this morning and identify hugely with it - thanks for conveying your inner journey. It is so well expressed.

I have been reflecting this weekend as to what Easter means to me and have been reflecting on the Lord's various interventions in my life and his fidelity to me....[removed to preserve anonymity of the writer]... He has been a God of love. Your third last paragraph beginning "in the early days" is particularly poignant, as it expresses so well the depth of the relationship that you have for God and his fidelity to you as a friend. The way that you express it is so real. Thanks.

In terms of finding the strength to "stand up for the life that is meant for me", my latest insight is that being gay in the Church is a sign to the "straight" community about their own sexuality. In my view most of the prejudice against gays is based on guys who are unsure of their own sexuality. The "straight" people who are genuinely accepting of me, impress me as being comfortable with themselves. I take the view that I do not have the problem being gay - it is the others problem. Perhaps I can help them to accept who they are!! Just a few thoughts.

Anyway, thanks for sharing with me. I experienced from points one to ten the emotions that you mentioned in your "struggle". I was outed in a most unfortunate way ....[removed to preserve anonymity of the writer]... so it was a huge learning curve.

Have a good Easter. Your paper is all about the Paschal mystery.


2) Leviticus

Leviticus 18:22 in the King James Version states: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Leviticus 20:13 is similar, except that it adds the death penalty as punishment.

This oft quoted piece of Hebrew Scripture has absolutely nothing to do with being Gay and loving your own sex, though of course those who are against same sex relationships, of any kind, draw on it as 'proof' that it is ungodly or against the will of (a Christian) God.

The laws as specified in these chapters were a means of protecting the Hebrew race - the line of Judah - and were simply a cause and effect against the waste of sperm. Nothing more, nothing less.

People who use this Scripture to rant against the Gay community are using God's word, (if that is what it is), out of context and in a quite ungodly manner.

Br Graham-Michael bSH

 

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Comments

thank you so much for sharing of yourself - much appreciated

I am so glad your friend coaxed you up to receive communion! God spoke through him, indeed. It seems this was a turning point in your life. Thank you for writing this most inspiring article. It is an important resource. God Bless.

I was brought up in a very 'religious' family. My grandfather was an SDA pastor and my father trained to enter the ministry. He didn't and left the SDA church due to doctrinal concerns. Extended family on both sides decried this, but eventually accepted it. My father was a creator of fear and pain. We eventually discovered that he was also an adulterer and a pedophile. Throughout my life I have maintained my own personal relationship with God and chose a non-fire-and-brimstone view of him. I married and had 3 children. All of this time I knew that I desired men, but kept that totally closed. I was 50 before being unable to keep the secret any longer but was still too tied up to step out and have a partner, even though there were genuine opportunities. I am a teacher and principal. If parents discovered that I am gay, the agonies would multiply. I will never feel free to be me, but I have confidence in God to continue him leading me forward, as he has done forever. God is a loving God. He alone can judge man. Those who condemn others for any reason have no right to do so. Actions can be judged against one's own beliefs and character, but the heart cannot be judged. God does that. The bible gives us lessons about how we should live, as well as a fair load of history which brings context to these lessons. Not only do I not understand everything that is there, but I also know I don't want someone's "expert" translations into denominational interpretations doctrinal rules. There are ten rules which seem to have provided a pretty good foundation for the human race so far. Do we need to extrapolate those into fine print? No. The rules are pretty clear, I think. I don't see homosexuality defying any of those rules. God tells us that he loves us. He doesn't say that he only loves particular denominations, races, colours etc. 'Suffer the little children to come unto me." How many of those children were pushed away by God across the centuries because their brains were wired to being outside the accepted 'norms' ? None. I'm gay, but I know I have my relationship with God and no one else has the right to say otherwise. Cheers to all and may God bless and encourage you.

No one is going to solve anything by denying the truth. To say that passages about homosexuality in the bible is for a different time and place means that the whole of the bible is for a different time and place so none of it is relevant. Equally,saying that the bible says nothing about a man and woman relationship is a denial of the truth. There are over 700 verses that speak of the man/woman relationship and not one of them speak of a man/man relationship. When one does an exegesis of scripture, you always consider the overall import of the subject in question. Proof texting is not the way of an understanding of what is being said. Because the scripture makes it clear from hundreds of texts that God created a man/woman relationship we have to if we are honest accept that as the norm. One has to ask if God is OK with homosexuality, why did he not give it his imprimatur when writing the bible? The fact that he didn't speaks volumes. I have an aversion to ministers who deny or avoid the truth or try to explain it away. As one who has escaped the clutches of same sex attraction and who has friends who have done the same and are at peace, the fact (truth) is that homosexuality is an aberration that God never intended and because he is a God of love he does not leave people who are trapped by that way of life if they want out. If they do not want out, He will not mess with your choices. As the scripture says "seek and you will find" and "he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him." Because homosexuality is born of relational trauma, it is hard to let go of it because of the insecurities that come with it. It is no different than a person who is a serial fornicator with the opposite sex. The basis for it is the same and the same emotional needs are evident. Each homosexual has a emotional detachment to protect being hurt and that is why relationships are so short. Once they start getting too close the pressure is on and the reason why they are not monogamous. My church is setting up a ministry to the fatherless and those with an orphan spirit. Amongst those we expect to minister to will be homosexuals. On a previous occasion, when I counselled a homosexual where he told me his story, when he finished I said to him "What you are saying is that you want a father." He immediately burst into tears and said "Yes." The answer is not to say I was born homosexual or that God is OK with my homosexuality or that the bible does not condemn homosexuality. The answer is to find the one true God whose image you are made in who is able to set you free from that which Jesus came and died to set you free from. Whatever your struggle is, he has the power to set you free from it and make you whole and wholesome and give you life abundant. Having suffered the clutches of a same sex attraction and no longer do, I know that life abundant is post same sex attraction. I have never been so happy in all of my life as I no longer have to second guess God and explain away scripture. I know my words will not please all of you but unless you hear both sides of the story you will walk in darkness and defeat. And let me make it quite clear. I do not have homophobia. I do not hate homosexuals. I do not judge them. I do not condemn them. After all, I have been there and done that so I know what it is like. Having experienced both sides of the fence I would not swap abundant life for the homosexual way of life in a million years.

The Bible certainly contains a lot of all time truths but to say every part of it is relevant for all ages and should be adhered to would be ridiculous. I remember watching one famous episode of West Wing (TV Series) where President Bartlett raised some poignant questions about the Bible to counter a homophobic talk show host: 1. "I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleaned the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?" [Exodus 21:7 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go free as male slaves do."] 2. "My chief of staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?" [Exodus 35:2 "On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be sacred to you as the sabbath of complete rest to the LORD. Anyone who does work on that day shall be put to death."] 3."Here's one that's really important cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7 If they promise to wear gloves can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? [Leviticus 11: the pig, which does indeed have hoofs and is cloven-footed, but does not chew the cud and is therefore unclean for you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their dead bodies you shall not touch; they are unclean for you."] 4. "Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? [Leviticus 19: You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together.] Are we to take the face value of these passages as do many other passages of the Bible as our moral guidiance and the rules of our daily life? I think all those who work in the garden centres, the department stores, the taxi drivers and any one who works on Sunday would have to be condemned. Could one still argue that they are relevant today? The Bible was aimed at the mass and at the climate of the time, if a stamp of approval (imprimatur) was given to homosexual practice, it would have been identified as paganistic and counterproductive (literally) as keeping population up was important for a society based on primary industry. If the Bible has to endorse everything that we do in our lives in writing, it would be a lot thicker than it is. One would have underestimated God if one thinks that homosexuality is an aberration that God has not intended. There is nothing that God cannot foresee. Everything that happens in our lives has a purpose, just that it may not be obvious to us. God knows everything: the past, the present and the future. It is us who cannot, do not and sometimes, will not see. It is true that God does want us to seek and find him, irrespective of who we are, straight or GBLT, sinners and all but finding him does not mean denying our true nature, of what he made us to be. God is almighty and omnipotent, God can manifest in many ways, if God can made man and women his image who can say GLBT is not an image of God too? Homosexuality is not necessarily born of relational trauma, it may be for some but not all. For many of us, we knew we were attracted to the same sex even when we were kids or knew what sexuality was all about. If one were to say that homosexuality is hard to let go because of emotional insecurity, it may also be true that some people find it hard to relinquish their homosexuality, the insecurity of belonging to the other camp could be even scarier. It is kind of rich to say that homosexual relationships are short and non-monogamous where divorce rate of heterosexual couples is 19.8% and rising and promiscuous sex amongst married and unmarried heterosexuals is plain to see in the mushrooming social networking websites. On the other hand, there are many homosexuals who are enjoying long term stable relationships and even committed to civil unions and marriages. The truth of the matter is, it does not really matter what the Bible says, what some church leaders say, whether we are straight or gay (LBT...), the important thing is to know who and what we truly are, to be honest with ourselves, because whoever and whatever we are, God loves us and will accept us as long as we are willing to accept God.

Just so very confusing, so much talk and so hard to come to any kind of conclusion, I do wish that God would just speak and get us all out of the misery of guessing games.

In regards to your comment on communion, God makes it clear in the bible that "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord." 1 Corinthians 11:27

How many people who goes up to the alter to receive Holy Communion do you think are truely worthy? Whoever we are, whatever we do, we are unworthy but only if our heart is sincere, faith alone suffice (Ad firmandum cor sincérum sola fides súfficit - St Thomas Aquinas). Even Pope Benedict XVI made a startling proclamation: "Luther’s expression sola fide is true if faith is not opposed to charity, to love" (Wednesday Audience, Nov. 19, 2008) In every mass, before we are invited to receive Holy Communion, we say: "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you but say the world and I shall be healed" which comes from Matthew 8:8

I'm a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and no way is it 'normal' to be gay. that is NOT how you were made. You think you can imagine and guess at what the scriptures mean and all you're doing is trying to find some way, through manipulation of the Holy Scriptures, to justify your wickedness and lust. I'd suggest that you seek some medical advice because I do know of some that have gone this way and through medical intervention, the chemical imbalance has been corrected. If you tell yourself its ok, you will never reach through to peace, it will only be a false sense of it. You need to accept the simple truth that God never made man to be attracted to man, you are just justifying your lust to say the opposite. Accept that the devil has a grasp of you and you are only pleasing him to carry on with this same-sex wickedness and cry out to the Lord to save you and open your eyes to the real truth.

Yes we can all take scriptire out of context to justify our behaviour. It still gets to me that where its written as clrarly as God speaking it...we still try and bend it to suit. I think if we went back to basics and read the scriptures as "literal" .... most of us would be shocked as to how far we have fallen from grace.... thank God for Jesus who atones for our sins. There is mercy and forgiveness... but there are conditions...one of them being....repentance ....a turning away from sin... yes God is a God of love, but also a God of wrath. It clearly goes against nature and biblical principles... no matter how you try and bend it. However we all fall short, we just need to stop fooling ourselves.

I agree with you. Take religion or the Bible away and I would still think it's not normal or meant to be. If it was we would have been born with both a vagina and a penis or have evolved with the two. Anal six is a perversion whether you are gay or straight.

You are equating sexual orientation with sexual practice, equating being gay with practising anal sex. Not all gay men engage in anal sex and lots of straight people engage in anal sex. What about 2 lesbians engaging in non anal intercourse, would that be more acceptable to you? There are quite a lot of people born with both a penis and a vagina and same sex practice is not uncommon in the world of nature. I think it is human nature that when we do not understand something, we are afraid of them and we develop defensive behaviour toward them, whether it is racial, ethnical, religious, or sexual practices.

The Holy Bible, the Qu'ran or any other scriptures could be opened to interpretations. Do we want to follow the path of hatred, violence, persecution, murderous intents or do we want to follow the path of compassion, love and peace, is up to us. Pray brothers and sisters, the real truth of God will speak to you in your heart.

I am a Priest and I have struggled for years, (since 35/6 years old) when I discovered I was gay. I am a born-again Christian and my greatest worry was not what the Bible said but whether any of my parishioners realised I was gay as it is forbidden in my church.. I would be sacked. I am what I am."a child of God" and He made me male and gay. Now I am in my 70's I have come to accept what I cannot change!.. At last I have peace within my heart.

I'm still struggling with my attraction for the same gender. My family is super homophobic and I haven't come out to them. I'm constantly in a cycle of anger, loneliness and sadness. I'm so tired of living like this and I just want to die. At least death sets you free from all the pain.

You are not alone, that was exactly my sentiment when I was 17 y.o. but I am glad that I did not die as I had wished because I would have missed so many wonderful things that lay waiting for me since. The elation of love found and inevitable sadness of love lost; dare I say, the excitment of one night stands even orgies and eventually the sweetness of settling down with the love of my life. Then there was the excitment of new knowlege, ideas, new friends, new experience from travels, from work; delicious food, art, music, sports, all the wonderful facets of life that lay ahead of us. The matter of the fact is: as one grows older, one tends to care less of what other think of us, gay or straight and as time goes by, we realise that being gay is no big deal, coming out or not, people don't care so much. The family may be homophobic (mine was too) but if they care and love you as their flesh and blood, they will accept you, eventually. We must live the life that make us happy not what we think would make our family happy.

I'm not that young though. I'm an adult who has no hope of coming out. My background is different. No one comes out in my culture. Some gay people I know pretend to be straight and end up in sham marriages. I tried doing that but I backed out at the last moment. I feel I don't deserve to be alive, I don't belong here. I've had so much success profesionally but my personal life is such a mess. Isn't it better to die than perpetually live in the closet and live a lonely life full of pain?

I'm still struggling with my attraction for the same gender. My family is super homophobic and I haven't come out to them. I'm constantly in a cycle of anger, loneliness and sadness. I'm so tired of living like this and I just want to die. At least death sets you free from all the pain.

how could we be wrong to follow the heart and mind that is created by God You ask? God created you and gave you free will. Is it ok for pedophiles to act on their urges or lust for children ? Just because you think you are not hurting anyone it doesn't make it right and you are forgetting that you are hurting God. If God wanted us to be with the opposite sex he would have given us all both a vagina and a penis. Satan is the one who has corrupted your mind. Please please open your eyes and see this. God loves you but he doesn't love your sins just like he doesn't love mine so I try darn hard to please him as hard as it may be I feel I owe it to him. Jesus did not die on the cross to enable you to continue sinning. If you do not repent you will not be saved. Having said that you can do what you want with your life . It's yours to live but just think that one day you will be judged , we all will be.

The difference is: pedophiles are not born pedoplies, pedophilia is an acquired behaviour, they are criminals and they know that they are committing a crime against the law of the society as well as the law of God. Being gay is not a crime and a gay person should know that he/she is not acting against the will of God. How does possessing vagina and penis become a determining factor of whether being gay is the will of God or not? Where is the logic of "If God wanted us to be with the opposite sex he would have given us all both a vagina and a penis"? Since in most cases, God did not give us both a vagina and a penis, so God does not want us to be with the opposite sex? Or did you mean to say that because we do not have both a vagina and a penis, therefore God did not want us to be with the same sex? Or are you saying all people who love the same sex like both vagina and penis? None of the above stacks up of course. Besides, penis and vagina are not central to the issue of being gay or straight. The central issue is LOVE and true love has no bourndaries or qualification just like the love of God for us. He/She loves us for who we are, just as we love someone for who they are, be they of the same or opposite sex, with or without penis or vagina or with both! I think you are the one who is corrupted by Satan, for he has closed your eyes, ears, heart, preventing you to accept and love other people who are just a bit different, for people who are willing to be what they really are. Please let other live their own life and learn to love thy neighbour as thyself.

Bishop Spong? Mate, he's theologically unsound ... he relativizes the Bible to suit his liberal views ... if you're a gay Christian, so what, you can't help it, it's not your fault and it's not God's fault, relax, enjoy life and love God and follow Jesus ...

It is fact that we are all born into sin according to GODs word. Just to outline a few lust, greed, envy and homosexuality. Now as a heterosexual human bieng I too lust after woman and this is classed as sin and also a man who lusts after a man is sin. So here we see both parties are in sin according to a belief we uphold. So I must repent as a hetero and move on and try not to endorse that behavior in my life. Now when the same thing happens to a gay person some how the a new law comes into play. The right to preserve a sin justified by self that God says is wrong and to say because I love its ok. I can lust over a woman, covert her and love her, does that make it ok? No. You see God has a way to live and we cant deny our creator does not know the best way to live, and that is in Christ. All these sins Jesus knew as he died on the cross for them. We are told to go to the cross daily against the sins of our flesh and Im telling you for some that is the hardest thing to do because your flesh says it desires these sins daily. In order to approach our lord we are to be in the best possible state as a man or woman in sin with a repentant heart. I believe the harder we press in the easier it gets and the sin will eventually fall away. But that is only if the sin in your body is faced with a blatant no this is to stop, if not, it will carry on. So I too carry sin just like a gay man and I may go to the judgement seat with sin in my heart too but can only see it from my perspective. All I can say is dont change the rules to suit yourself and at the end of the day your belief in Jesus is judged by the heart. So if your honest with yourself at the judgement seat then I think the Judge will see that? The law of GOD is a challenge to us all and it is only for the good of his church and remember all is said for the good of all man not some. So it has to be upheld and never forget in Hebrew the word, Gods wrath is passion. He has such passion for us, well you know the rest but dont think god does not see sin, he is purity and sin cant come before a sovereign lord and it was he who sent Christ. Never forget that???. The law of GOD cant change, if it does, he has to change and he simply does not change.

God made the human body. The anus was for the digestive tract, not the sexual act. Marriage was for love, sex and pro-creation. This was God's plan that a man should marry a woman to wife. In the bible there was such a great love between David and Jonathon, but they had their own wives. Homosexuals can never reproduce as God intended. God loves the world, which includes sodomites, but he hates the act. He can change the heart

lets keep it simple. the bible does not endorse same sex union or marriage.

God doesn't care about your sexual orientation he only cares that you repent be born again and live by the spirit of god , for all eternity nothing we do can change us, only Jesus can change us , we all fall down in sin , it is the nature of man !!!! Hetro,gay ,what ever, we all sin equally ,ask forgivness and move on . Oh yeh im gay by the way cheers!!!!!

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